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Game development is full of all sorts of little roadblocks that make life hell. Some things I enjoy figuring out, but others I would rather not think about at all. Such as save data and on-line multi-player.

In Castle Crashers, we have four selectable characters. As you play the game, you level up and distribute skill points to upgrade your character. This led to our first question: Are the saved character stats attributed to your specific knight (for instance, the blue knight), or for you as a player (your Xbox360 account)? If the stats were based on your Xbox360 Live account, you would be able to play as any character and always have the same stats. You could beat the game as the blue knight, then play as the orange knight and be just as powerful as you had become in your previous session.

This seemed lame, because it removes the incentive of re-playing the game as different characters. Assuming we have unlockable characters, it would be equally lame for them to be fully powered up when you unlock them. So it seems logical that every character in the game should have his own unique level stats, which are saved independently, under your Xbox360 account. So when I log in as "Newgrounds" and play as the blue knight, his stats are unique from when I play as the orange knight.

Now here's where the first problem arises. Say you join a match of on-line multi-player. The players join up BEFORE they select their characters, to preserve that arcade feel of everyone going to the player select screen together. Lets say you have spent all your time advancing the blue knight, but as soon as you start an on-line game, someone else chooses the blue knight. You are now stuck with choosing a character you haven't developed. Either that, or we allow multiple players to play as the same color, but that would be chaos.

An alternative would be to let players choose their character in advance, then match-make based on that - but it would limit the pool of player matches and be annoying for other reasons I don't feel like getting into. We don't want to go that route. The positive side is, it encourages players to build up all their characters and spend more time playing on-line to do so.

So now we have four players who have joined up and entered the game. Player one has unlocked everything up to the last level, but player two has never played before and hasn't unlocked anything. This is a hotly debated topic. Do we allow a new player to jump straight to the end and have the entire game spoiled, or do we force the seasoned players to replay through the game from start to finish, to humor the new guy? Will a new player even be able to survive in the later levels? That's a matter of just how wide the gap becomes between a new player and a fully developed character - something that is still wide open to adjustment.

I had been leaning towards not allowing new players to skip ahead with seasoned players. My thought was, seasoned players would enjoy replaying through earlier levels, whereas the experience of the game would be cheapened if new players skipped ahead. However, Mike just sent me this article from Game Developer magazine. I am already in agreement with much of it, such as, "Games are not for game designers and their ivory-tower ideals - games are for players."

The article eventually tackles the issue of multi-player saves, where it explains, "Even if the friend is new to the game, they're still allowed to join someone who's playing the last level, because Gears of War is trying to be as convenient to the player as possible." This statement alone makes me shudder at the thought of NOT being convenient to the player. If it's good enough for Gears, it's good enough for Castle Crashers. So here is what we are looking at:

1) Under your Xbox360 user profile, you have independent stats for every playable character in the game. These stats include character attributes, unlocked levels, weapons and items.

OPEN TO DEBATE: Should unlocked levels be global to your Xbox360 user profile? So for example, if you beat the game with the blue knight, can you start the game as an undeveloped orange knight and still have all the levels unlocked? Ditto for weapons... Can your orange knight use the weapons acquired by your blue knight? Currently, you can't. I kinda think weapons should be shared between all players under your Xbox360 Live account, so you can get more joy from unlocking them. Maybe the same for special items.

2) When accompanied by other players, both local and on Live Arcade, any levels unlocked by any of the players are available to all the players. The same goes for weapons and special items, as the players equip these items in communal spaces.

NOTE: In a multi-player game, where a local friend is logged in as a GUEST, your friend can play as your blue knight while you play as your orange knight. In which case your orange knight CAN play your previously unlocked levels and CAN use your previously unlocked weapons. But only because your other knight is in the game with you.

Writing it all down has actually made these issues feel more simple and obvious, but this is just the tip of the iceberg of some of the crap we have to deal with. Don't even get me started on how bosses, enemies and in-game cinemas need to handle four players instead of one.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

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The People Have Spoken

76 Comments

Nov. 29, 2007 | 9:27 AM knugen says:

Is this were I go "Nice Tom", and feel unlimited joy inside due to being the first to comment? ;P

Nov. 29, 2007 | 9:31 AM TomFulp responds:

Yes. How was it?

Nov. 29, 2007 | 10:00 AM herblin says:

I see why this takes you so long... running newgrounds, and with how much you seem to be putting into this game, I cant wait though, its going to be amazing!

Nov. 29, 2007 | 10:02 AM knugen says:

Hehe, I honestly can't see why everybody's so psyched about getting the first comment.. Surely getting the first on site news is 'bigger', but meh.. nothing special ;)

(The fact that you took 3-4 seconds of your precious time to answer it meant the world to me though!)

(Just kidding.. at least a little ^_^ )

I feel kinda like one of those spammers now though, in my next comment I will make sure to comment on the actual news :P

Nov. 29, 2007 | 10:15 AM Qweety says:

I think you should just make it how you have it for the characters. If you did it would make the player try to level everyone up equally so they will always be set. The skills should definitely be independent.

As for the single player co-op, make the new people go to the last level if they want. If they want to beat the whole game than that's their choice. Let them choose making it more suitable to however the player feels like playing.

Nov. 29, 2007 | 11:32 AM jmtb02 says:

I wish I knew a little more about the genre of this game. I look back to the classic upright cabinets and they tell me that I can stick my quarter into any of the four slots and play any of the characters, and that I can switch at the continue screen if necessary (think TMNT arcade, etc). However, you do have the element of unlocking stuff which poses an issue.

I agree, I say that you restrict players from using different characters with abilities and levels gathered by old characters. For one, the metagame may not translate for some, and secondly, it takes away from playing the game over again and gathering the little bits and pieces lost (still playing Bioshock again).

As that factors into the multiplayer, I would ultimately let local matches have the players deal with the issue of picking and choosing colors, and online matches focus on entering their one character and letting the computer decide. Honestly, it sucks waiting to find a match because of color coordination, but it doesn't make sense having 4 blue characters running around, or someone getting scammed out of their choice.

Or maybe you can have 4 blue characters running around, but I understand the world of pain caused by that.

Good luck either way.

Nov. 29, 2007 | 11:43 AM TomFulp responds:

It was originally built with the arcade mentality in mind, where players could join in to a level at any time, and could also choose a new character when they continue. It has changed since then... The option to join in during a level will likely be gone from the final game, although players will be able to join in from the map screen between levels. The option to continue during a level may also be gone. Instead, players will have to complete the level with what they have in their life bar. If three of the players die during the level but one player makes it to the end, all of them get to continue along to the next level (similar to how the four player PDA games in Alien Hominid work).

The game isn't meant to be too difficult - nothing like Alien Hominid - and I hate repeating a level after dying, so we need to be careful about how much punishment there is for dying and starting back at checkpoints within the level. The goal is a fun whimsical adventure that challenges you ENOUGH, but doesn't feel like punishment.

We're also tinkering with stuff such as what does a player do after he dies, if he wants to stick around with his friends... Does he simply sit and watch them try to finish the level, or does he come back as a ghost who can occasionally zap enemies with lightning? That's the sort of thing I'm leaning towards... Having the ability to fly around alongside your friends and charge up an attack to help them out as they try to finish the level.

Nov. 29, 2007 | 11:34 AM Eggys says:

Wow, what a project. I'm gonna go ahead and assume that this game has excellent replay value, like Alien Hominid. So why not make it possible to restart the game with another character?

Nov. 29, 2007 | 11:36 AM Rucklo says:

Leave the choise of who can join to the one who starts the game, perhaps he could choose a span of what levels are allowed (f.ex. lvl3-6 only etc).
But it do dependd alot fo how big the difference really is between the levels... I mean, if we're talking Diablo2, the difference between lvl 1 and lvl 60 is humongous...

And on that account, to make it more fair when it comes to weapons etc. have a minimum level required to use them. Maybe you guys already have that...

It would make sense trying to work towards getting the player actually wanting to play with other players about the same level, and with that approach in mind you could tackle every unique "situation".

Nov. 29, 2007 | 11:39 AM RockinPunk says:

I think you have the right idea. Each character has to be built up independantly, but I think that "special" items/weapons, once unlocked, are unlocked for everyone, extra incentive to get them.

Nov. 29, 2007 | 12:44 PM Dast says:

I haven't got any suggestion ...

Nov. 29, 2007 | 2:06 PM Pandora-Productions says:

Heres my 2cents, you choose what character you wanna play, for the sake of argument two people pick the blue knight, since 2 people picked him, they are taken to a second screen where they can choose a different colour/costume for him. colours like Pink, Black, Maroon, Indigo. therefore, neither player has the default Blue costume so they can tell each other apart. (i know the colour is important because of the different special moves) yet it seems a fair way of getting around this.

the other problem, the idea that a newcomer would be paired with a veteran. the only solution i would have is, give the newcomer a handicap. nothing to make him on the same level as the other players but to help him on his way. and in doing so, limit the amount of experience they would get, yet... because the other players are at a disadvantage of having a weaker player on their team they gain a certain degree xp more than they would if there were 4 high level people playing. (imagine it like their the squire or lackey of the other 3 hero's therefor they get less XP in comparison,)

so a lvl 1 player would get more experiance if he teamed with other people who are level 1 also, yet if no games are avaliable, he/she could still play online with other people and actually help them out

I LOVE the idea you raised that once you die you can still help out, i was notorious on Bomberman back in the day for chucking bombs in at the other players with perfect accuracy (i was a right bastard) and for me, the idea of always playing regardless of if your a live or dead and not the: "sit on your arse watching the other, better players, have fun" method since the heads of all the characters are quite square you could easily redesign them into a grim fandango like skull and have them as a sort of angel of death.

but what about the other angle? i'll tell you what i would think would be good AND origional, the ability to posses enemies for a limited period...

hear me out first...

say the blue knight been killed the ghost sits up shakes his head a bit (maybe doing a little cute animation of him trying to pick up his sword but to no avail :3 )

instead of having Hit Points (HP) he'd have Ghost Points (GP), which constantly lower until the amount reacher 0% and POOF the ghost is gone, the only way of slowing this down is by possessing a humanoid enemy, while possessed, the GP maintains its current level not increasing or decreasing. yet HP of the enemy naturally goes down at a slow rate, once the HP is depleated the player must rush to another living host in order to carry on fighting,

this also adds for strategy as the other players would have to keep certain enemies alive so the ghost players could carry on fighting

...

...yeah I'm no coder, in fact the very sight of actionscript makes me run for the hills, but its a suggestion that I thought i may as well give

any which road, i hope to see how it turns out!

is it only going to come out on Xbox360? i mean... Alien Hominid was a good laugh on the PS2

Nov. 29, 2007 | 2:16 PM Forgetthename says:

Yeah, there's a lot of thought to put into this. I think that characters should be saved individually (spelling?) since it would feel like cheating to suddenly have four buffed up characters, and would ultimately take away the replay value, and also it wouldn't be possible to experiment with new character builds.

And for weapons, just make requirement for them to be usable, especially if they're used in pvp combat.

Also i think that there should be an experince penality for partying with a high level character, so that a level XX can just jump around killing the strong monsters, buffing up XP real fast. This is seen in maplestory, where the highest level character gets the majority of the xp, so partying with a player in your own levelrange is the most giving.

Well I have no more thoughts for now.

Nov. 29, 2007 | 3:55 PM Sirschmoopy says:

The same can be said for any online game with characters who are higher level then newcommers. If you game has a level based system then my personal opinion would be you should only be able to skip levels if your team of characters has the "correct" amount of level/skill points to skip. IE if you plan for a character to be level 15 before he reaches the final stage then unless every player joins the game is 15 you can't skip to that stage and have to start from level one. This would make different games where people would play games that are "For new characters only!" or "High levels GOGOGO HOT GIRLS FAST HOST".

You could also do PRIORITY picking. Something like if you have the blue character to the highest level then you have the option of picking first. No matter what though in a game with four characters theres always going to be that last guy or so who just doesn't wanna play the stupid purple knight. I mean screw donatello who wants the be the gay ninja turtle.

You could have re skins of the characters, four different shades of blue with slightly altered helmets or something. I mean if two people wanna be the blue knight, there is NO other way to make them happy. People will always have favorite characters and when they can't have them, they will whine.

Nov. 29, 2007 | 5:36 PM TomFulp responds:

We've talked about the different shades of color, but that could still be messy in the case of FOUR shades of blue... If we did allow it, I would probably try something like in sports games, where each player has a cursor that appears at their base to specify who it is. We also talk about putting gamer tags above the players heads, but that would look like crap throughtout the game... It might do it when they first start a level, though.

I like the idea of priority picking... Watching your knight kick the other player out of the player slot so he has to pick someone else... Or doing a button mashing struggle for who gets the slot. Fun stuff. :)

Nov. 29, 2007 | 4:00 PM DibbityDan says:

Take a page out of Diablo 2's book. There's 4 different knight colors. I'd say go ahead and let different people have the same colors in each match. But Diablo allowed you to differentiate by looking at their armor, weapons and so on. So maybe go ahead and let them have different hats or armor types (I'm sure thats a pain in the ass to animate more than one armor type.) Anyone who's played Diablo 2 online, with its 7 different character classes, knows what I'm talking about.

Nov. 29, 2007 | 4:05 PM RabiesIsMe says:

I have a suggestion. Why the hell don't you port this to Wii and put it up for download on Wiiware? Everytime I read or hear about this game, i die a little inside, knowing I won't be able to play it unless I buy another console.

REAL suggestions:

What if some jackoff plays as the character you were about to play as?

Costumes. Give each character 4 different colour swaps or desgins, but keep the playstile unique to that character, etc. I'm thinking shades of blue fo the blue knight, or add on wardrobe such as a cape, hat, player designed insignia,...

That way, You will always be able to play as your leveled character and have some snazzy different style options as well, WHILE still looking the colour of the knight you selected.. Also, keep the fact that you all go to the character select screen together.

What is a newb plays with a vet on Co-op mode?

This is a tricky one...
I'm going to have to say: they can select the level they want to play, as long as the vet has it unlocked. That way they can both groups are satisfied.
Those who want to start from the beginning can do so manually.
Those who want to help their friend beat that hard boss can do so too.

Should stats be saved by profile or by character?

Character. You basically put the word in my mouth. I'd be lame if you unlocked someone at full power.

Should levels, weapons and the like be saved onto character profile or Xbox360 account?

I'm going to say character profile. If you played the game with an undeveloped character with awesome weapons, it'd be kind of weird. I don't know, I think you should have the players focus their attention on uprading their induvidual characters. Like in an MMORPG. Also, think of the replay value if you are forced to unlock everything else again if you selected a new character? I wouldn't mind it.

I'm no game developer by any means, but thats how I think you should do it.

Nov. 29, 2007 | 4:07 PM CaptainBob says:

Love the ghost idea. Much better than sitting around.

You could also give the option of everyone having a maxed out character with some but not all of the weapons and abilities. This is an option in Live play for Samuari Warriors II on the 360, where you can play with a top level character even if you havent maxed out that character. It assigns random skills and weapons. This gives everyone an even playing field for the most part.

Nov. 29, 2007 | 4:08 PM RabiesIsMe says:

I forgot about the death thing.

I love the idea of ghosts, to keep the action going non stop untill you all die, so I'd go with that. it's original and creative, and should totally be included in the game. But seriously, make sure the ghost if weaker than any live player. Try to keep it so that nobody is going to purposely die to become a ghost because it's just as or equally as strong.

Nov. 29, 2007 | 4:22 PM Wiiporter says:

Don't get levels involved in multiplayer. Problem solved.

OR have a system where the player does Rock Paper Scissors for a disputed character.

Nov. 29, 2007 | 4:46 PM Luis says:

quit and work on finishing the store and ng mag.

^________________________^

Nov. 29, 2007 | 5:32 PM TomFulp responds:

It's so tempting. :(

Nov. 29, 2007 | 5:10 PM HorrificMonster says:

Just a thought for your character selection problem. Have you thought of this: If the characters are the same (2 blue knights for instance) Have the ability for players to select a badge of some sort to differentiate themselves from the other players? Sort of like Halo 3, but more prominent and noticable. Coupled with a high level of customization, the badges could add a certain feel of personal identity to their character.

Just a thought! Please don't flame me! =)

Nov. 29, 2007 | 5:21 PM HorrificMonster says:

Also, is this going to be something to purchase on the Xbox Live Arcade, or is this something I'll be picking up at GameStop/Where ever?

Nov. 29, 2007 | 5:32 PM TomFulp responds:

Xbox360 Live Arcade.

Nov. 29, 2007 | 5:59 PM Rhete says:

How different do all the knights play? I'm thinking when two people pick the blue knight, one of them is forced to take the "spirit" (stats) of his blue knight and throw it into another one of the characters. That way there is only one blue character running around, but both players get to use their built up stats

Nov. 29, 2007 | 8:45 PM The-Yokai says:

This game will be awesome! But I guess now I have to go buy a 360...
Maybe you could make the multiplayer characters at about medium-level strength by default, then when the players start the game they can level up in-game and whatever powers or stat upgrades they get are wiped when the game ends? although that may be frustrating... I'm not sure. I haven't been closely following the production of this game so I don't know much about it.
....
Otherwise, I'd say you should have the stats and weapons stay attached to one character. This would give gamers more incentive to play through the single-player game with all the characters.

Nov. 29, 2007 | 9:08 PM Kirbyzilla says:

why not let people mini-custimize ( like bettween 3 types of armor sword ect...) so they can tell each other apart. and make the first couple weapons the same for the different colored guys, then make like 3 out of the 17 total weapons are unique to that color.
to bad i have no 360...yet...

Nov. 29, 2007 | 9:14 PM zac439 says:

Hey there Tom, I think I may have a solution.

Make a global variable that is initially "0". We will call this variable "UNLOCKED".

Now when the user beats the game once, UNLOCKED = 1. This can be on any character color.

Now IF UNLOCKED = 1, then give the player full stats on every color with online mode only. If they are playing locally, you can just give them the full stats on the character they beat the game with.

in this example the color of the knights is only important for local play.

Or you could make a basic profile system, and when online play is enabled, ask for which profile name you would like to contribute experience to.

either way would work.

Nov. 30, 2007 | 1:15 AM SeizureDog says:

I wouldn't worry so much about the whole "experience of the game would be cheapened if new players skipped ahead" thing. I'm doubting that you're going to have any story spoilers for this kind of game ("OMG SEPHIROTH KILLS ORANGE KNIGHT! D:"), and I think few people feel let down by playing later missions early (think Super Mario Bros., people love to skip levels). You've already stated that the game isn't going to be AH hard, and skipping levels is only a let-down when normally getting to said level is a satisfying achievement.

That being said, skipping character levels and abilities is bullshit. Don't allow for none of that.

I'm assuming that CC is basically a Gauntlet homage, with the characters having quite different abilites, in which case having a shared player stats feature would be stupid. Gotta have it where it's knight specific.

Also, whatever you do, don't allow for knights of radically different levels to play together. Gauntlet Legends allowed this, and it was bullshit for me to have to be a lvl 1 when my friend was like a lvl 99. Kills the fun for the new guy.

I also like your "coming back as a ghost" idea for when players die. It's so annoying to die early and wait for your friend(s) to finish before playing again. It reminds me of in Super Mario Kart 64 battles where dying turned you into a bob-bomb that you could run into other players with.

In coming up for ideas for your problem though, there's some information that's needed:

1: How long is the game? How many levels? If it's planned to be beatable within a short amount of time (say on par with a Metal Slug game), you might as well just force multiplayer games to start from the begining.

2: How far up can knights level up? Would it take a week to get to the max level or months?

3: What are some of the things higher level characters can do that lower ones cannot? Are high level characters mostly just a difference in stats or do they gain abilities too?

4: How are skill points awarded? Killin' guys? Per level? Careful with any system where exp points aren't shared. A player that's able to get more experience than his teammates early starts being able to kill guys more easily, which just keeps making that level gap wider. Soon you're stuck with one lvl 20 when everyone else is a lvl 10.

Nov. 30, 2007 | 9:08 AM TomFulp responds:

The ghost idea actually belongs to Mike. :)

As for the other questions:

1. How long it will take to play through the game isn't 100% determined yet. It will be longer than Alien Hominid, but not like Final Fantasy. There will also be aspects of going back and revisiting areas with access to new things. Forcing multiplayer to start from the beginning likely wouldn't sit well.

2. The aspects of leveling up are still completely open to lots of tweeking, but overall, it won't take months.

3. Also still in the secret sauce phase.

4. Experience is awarded for basically beating the crap out of stuff. When you level up, you get a few points that can be distributed amongst your different attributes.

Nov. 30, 2007 | 4:23 AM PiGPEN says:

Mmm....why not have the colors independant of the character for multiplayer?

So like if all 4 want to play as RED they all get to play as RED but RED will be 4 different colors.

Also....."The game isn't meant to be too difficult - nothing like Alien Hominid"
I dont remember Alien Hominid being that hard.....my little brothers have it for the PS2.....i played it with them from start to finish in a couple of hours.....im not even very good with a PS2 controller.

Nov. 30, 2007 | 4:52 AM FIGMENTUM says:

the first thing that popped into my head when trying to distinguish your blue knight from three others is HATS.

hatshatshatshatshatshatshatshatshats.

shat.

no wait hats.

you seem to have plenty of other ideas that'd work just as well if not better anyway (that glowing base you mentioned sounds awesome).

Nov. 30, 2007 | 7:32 AM Mogly says:

I liked the ghost zapping idea or anything along those lines.

An option for the character select (if the players cant decide who's who) is having a mini game to decide. It could burst into a game of All you can Eat or you have to have a fight quickly to decide. I can imagine people quitting angrily after this still..

Nov. 30, 2007 | 8:16 AM Dks60 says:

What about chat ?

Nov. 30, 2007 | 11:49 AM jimmynuto says:

you could always have the stats for that character and if another player wants to be the same character have a diffrent colour trim like p1.white p2.black p3.silver p4.gold (just a basic idea) or a diffrent shade of the colour light-dark.

Nov. 30, 2007 | 2:54 PM Frogcloset says:

Oh the problems you face that no one will even think about when playing the game.

Nov. 30, 2007 | 7:39 PM hagaya says:

well, i dont care as much as others about the character development in online because ill balance all the characters. This game sounds awesome! also i have one suggestion, make unlockable characters and/or an achivement system. I don't care if the character unlock is just the kid from dad n' me or alien hominid as a gimmick, just please put something cool to make players wanna fight for something more than the already awesome story. story is just 35% of a game, the other 65% is portioned to gameplay and surprises, but mostly gameplay. The surprises are supposed to make up for more gameplay! I don't care that much about my suggestions, because ive been wondering what the four knights on the adventure games section on 'Grounds, and i found it, so i was exited about this and the game sounded awesome from the start(4 player! w00t).

Nov. 30, 2007 | 7:53 PM AAAAAA says:

That banner is from Aero Fighters 2, amirite?

Nov. 30, 2007 | 11:25 PM Goat-Man says:

I think the perfect example to look at for some of these issues is Diablo 1 and 2. If you have never played them, my faith in Newgrounds just died a little. haha

I think you should have to progress through the game over and over to explore each character. Each character is unique enough that it withholds interest in the game. Everything you do on one character should remain with that individual.

I also think that the same character should be available in the same game as many times as they want. If they are balanced enough, then it will have a variety, and not just all on character.
This is were SSB games come in handy. Have about 4 or 5 different tones or allterations of each character incase there is more than 1 of each. Perhaps where it is usually white, make it grey or black.

I also feel that character shouldn't be bound to fight with one another. I'm not sure on the game mechanics, and how this would work. But in Diablo characters are all over, some will be in the first Act while others are working together in the third.
Maybe even have game modes. One is for characters who want to work together, and the other is for the cheaters how just tag along with better players.

I tried to tackle the issues best i could, and on a general front where it will not only pertain to my views.
Now i have a question that i have always wondered about Castle Crashers, and if you reply, i would appreciate a response. This is not a personal attack, or asking you to change your game. I always wondered why you focused only on Xbox 360 live arcade? It could have been for any console really, and it could have been a counter game, not an online bought game.
Is it because the 360 was the only next generation console available at the time work started? that would be reasonable.

Anyways, thanks for you time. Hope i could help atleast a little. hope to hear back

Dec. 1, 2007 | 12:21 AM Krishan360 says:

tom how do you change your aura im new at this
:(

Dec. 1, 2007 | 10:55 AM dancingweasels says:

well this has nothing to do with it but uh if you wrote the "Tom Fulp's Biography" in the Lit. section, then it should be "autobiography".

Dec. 1, 2007 | 11:38 AM ZombieswithJetpacks says:

Hows about custom lvls for online play? Yeah thats a lot of work, but hell, it would be cool. And for weapon sharing, how about all weapons are available, but weapons have lvls as well, and the more you use them the higher the power becomes, but then that would suck for a noob, so maybe the lvl. stats are distributed evenly? And as for people wanting to both play as the same character, how about you can, but when 2 or more people are the same color, they get to choose a hat to were. You know in super smash bros. whenever you play as pikachu he gets party hats and all that crap, well why not have that for your other characters. Do you know what would be really cool, an angry face hat! Or a pico mask, and a Alien Homid mask, and even an SBC mask if you could! Also, when I watched that preview for castle crashers a while back, and saw the giant kittens in the arena, I thought it would be really cool if balls of yarn fell from the sky and the cats chased the yarn through the arena. Well good luck tom, I just wish I had a 360. Good luck dude, and sorry for the really long comment.

Dec. 1, 2007 | 2:42 PM latin4life says:

are u gonna be able to download this on the wii

Dec. 1, 2007 | 4:54 PM PicoZX says:

Why did you have to change your banner?

Dec. 1, 2007 | 6:49 PM Eggys says:

Dude, I will cry maniacally if you make a Newgrounds store. (like that little creature you posted there) Cause there's no way I can just travel there. And I'll have to buy out the store!

Oh, wait, this is encouraging you isn't it?

Dec. 1, 2007 | 8:42 PM supertoria12 says:

Tom, remember my apology PM, you said something about the post getting deleted, M-Bot just deleted it. Oh, and do you personally tolerate the KittyKrew, or do you not like them?

Dec. 1, 2007 | 8:45 PM sinjx25 says:

For more than one player chosing the same color knight what about this: 2 people select the blue knight, each one gets to pick a different shade of blue like: blue,light blue, tuqious, dark blue. How about that?

Dec. 1, 2007 | 8:52 PM sinjx25 says:

Oh yea forgot to say something in my last post. For veterans vs people who haven't played, I don't think the person who hasn't played should get a handycap because I think you should never go to multiplayer before getting any of the story mode done. For saving I think each character should have different levels, like you have a level 5 blue knight and you haven't played the as green knight before, he should be level 1. Thanks for reading ^^

Dec. 1, 2007 | 10:29 PM donuts1 says:

i had some horrible problems, the game caste cat 3, every time it saves, it fails :-( and >:-(

Dec. 1, 2007 | 10:37 PM rezaiman says:

Regarding carried over stats: If playing the game with the each different knight is definitely a distinguishable experience, your specific stats should not be carried on. But say, for example, if you had the option in Halo 3 to be Master Chief, the Arbitor, or the other two elites in single player campaign, there should DEFINITELY not be, say, achievements for finishing the game with each different character. For those that simply like the campaign, it won't be a problem, because they'll probably replay it anyway, but for those that didn't like it, it'll be seen more as being forced to do something when you are simply just playing the game again. This kinda relates here, if playing the game is exactly the same with each knight, you shouldn't be forced to play the game as each knight to raise their stats. Now you have to ask yourself if the four knights are truly different. They may have the same moves and general abilities (projectiles, blast, etc.) but are those special abilities ACTUALLY different, or are they the same with just a different visual effect? (Say you are looking at just the projectile ability) Does the abilitiy use up the same amount of magic for each knight? Do they do as much damage for each knight? Do they have the same blast radius? Does the ability for each knight affect enemies differently? For the most part, if you are answering yes each time, you might have to reevaluate the idea of having independent stats for each character. Also, it might be good to note if those that have played the game have a preference of which knight they are based on if they play worse with other knights. If that's the case, then stats probably should be independent to each character.

Regarding choosing your knight: Once at the player select screen, players can choose each character, however, up to 2 people can select the same character. So 2 people choose the blue knight, and the other 2 people choose 2 of the 3 remaining knights. Once the game starts, only 1 of the 2 that chose the blue knight will actually be the blue knight and the other will be the knight that no one chose. This selection will be random, and the person that didn't get what they wanted gets some sort of bonus (such as an extra life, an added score bonus, etc.) Because in the end, if someone really cares about the knight they want to be and the don't get what they want, what else is going to make them not quit? heh. I would also suggest, once the game is about to start, having the gamertag blink under the corresponding knight, because the 2 people that chose the blue knight won't know who got it otherwise.

Regardless of what method you end up doing for choosing the knights, you should make it possible to press something like the Select button on the controller to display the gamertag below the persons knight.

I would like to know how the online setup is going to work. Does the player look for a specific game and is returned with a list games? If that's how it works, then it would be nice to have indicated which knights have been picked or something. Making this whole setup work well is going to be, I think, largely based on the organization of the online setup of the game, so make sure to get that as good as possible!

Regarding playing levels over online co-op: Ultimately, I don't think this will be a big issue because many people won't probably want to play co-op first, and if they did they probably would start from the beginning...and if they don't, they probably could care less anyhow, hehe. The set up you have under 2) is probably ideal.

Regarding unlocked weapons: I definitely think that once they are unlocked, they are unlocked for every knight. It would be neat if there were some weapons that are knight specific and in this case, you would obviously have to play through the game for each knight to obtain that specific weapon.

Hope I helped a bit...

Dec. 1, 2007 | 11:29 PM voidshatter says:

probably the first thing i've read and actually cared about all month, if i think of something i'll let you know

Dec. 2, 2007 | 3:20 AM ir0nh0rse says:

I like the button mashing idea to knock other players off a certain color. Or, unless the levels require certain classes, you should let 4 of us play as the same class, and just change the shade or color a bit.

Hey and don't make it TOO easy - "The game isn't meant to be too difficult - nothing like Alien Hominid" - scares me. eh, in retrospect, I've got faith.

Can't wait to play it. Hurry.

Dec. 2, 2007 | 7:08 AM pacometaloso says:

You rihtt a lot Tom.

Dec. 2, 2007 | 11:32 AM Desmolas says:

I dunno if the knights have unique abilities to each one, my suggestion goes right out the window if they do...

But how about let everyone choose who they want to be? ^^ Simple enough. But say they choose their character as blue, they 'SEE' themselves as blue, but another guy thats also blue is say, orange to them, but blue to himself. Its hard to explain in words. But its just their point of reference that changes, everyone is still essentially the same colour they picked to themselves, just something else to everyone else. Thus, they can keep their stats and weapons and shit. Like i said, this wouldnt work in the interest of continuity if theres special abilities, which now that i think of it, there more than likely is. Gah, confuzzling.

I really like the ghosting idea btw, theres nothing worse playing Halo co-op and shouting at your mate to hurry the fk up and finish the lvl or let him spawn. With the ghosting idea, people that get killed are still in the loop and can help their teammates in a small way. Its also a pretty original idea id think, would add a cool gameplay element i dont think ive seen before:P

Dec. 2, 2007 | 2:27 PM lavalampa says:

Fulp?

Dec. 2, 2007 | 6:11 PM jokerscard says:

Why not have a level cap?
It's like this. If you're say level 5 you can play with lower level people and teach them but you can;t play with the lets say level 7. The level 7 player could invite you if they knew you and that way you could play with you're friends instead of being separated by a level cap. Likewise the level 5 could invite lower level people to play with him/her.
Just an idea.

Dec. 2, 2007 | 6:26 PM Afro-Ninja says:

Dear God, you guys have ran into so many issues with this game

Dec. 3, 2007 | 12:35 AM TjA says:

Maybe you should add 'Immunities' to the monsters to stop multiple of the same elements, or a stats review for the game leader (so he can kick the lower (noob) players of that colour/character). Try adding a passive bonus such as "Hybrid: 5% extra elemental damage", this would be good as this could diverse different elements to pair up (so long as there is a 2-3 player mode also). You could add these effects to bonus pairs/triplets/quadruplets of different elements yet stop the effect from happening (maybe even a de-buff) if 2 of the same element are in a group.
Just a small idea... with bad use of grammar (its 5.30am my time)
Good luck with CC!

Dec. 3, 2007 | 8:08 AM helang7 says:

Where do you play castle crashers?

Dec. 3, 2007 | 4:43 PM LockDown68 says:

: Should unlocked levels be global to your Xbox360 user profile? So for example, if you beat the game with the blue knight, can you start the game as an undeveloped orange knight and still have all the levels unlocked? Ditto for weapons... Can your orange knight use the weapons acquired by your blue knight? Currently, you can't. I kinda think weapons should be shared between all players under your Xbox360 Live account, so you can get more joy from unlocking them. Maybe the same for special items.

I like that idea it always made me mad that whenever I'd beat a game I'd have to go back and unlock all the weapons God of War 2 did the same thing and when I was rebeating it on the higher levels I got a chance to start with all the weapons and made it much more enjoyable on the epic Titan mode and such.

Dec. 3, 2007 | 4:56 PM drsalvador says:

Well lets hope you can get this problem fixed so that we can all enjoy the game!

Dec. 3, 2007 | 7:21 PM Retrato says:

Tom you really made a pice of art with the chrismas thing. :)
*Snif* i put the song called The purest of winters on and watched the background.
I almost cried...
It was beautifull!

Dec. 3, 2007 | 8:32 PM NickScott says:

Ads on our userpages? Goddamn you.

Dec. 4, 2007 | 7:40 AM CameronClunes says:

imagine going to have a prostate exam but your doctor is obviously enjoying it too much. like he's clearly got a boner. imagine how awkward it'd be.

Dec. 4, 2007 | 9:15 AM FatBadger says:

Geee I sure hope this game isnt racist at all since the knights are whities and the evil characters arent, says grandma, but she hates all video games in general. Kudos.

Dec. 4, 2007 | 10:24 AM tobecuba says:

I HAVE SEEN THE PAGE OF CASTLE CRASHERS AND IT REALLY SEEMS TO BE AN AMAZING GAME, I SAW THE TRAILER AND I REALLY WANT TO PLAY IT. I THINK IT WILL BE A REALLY EXCELLENT GAME

BEST LUCK WITH IT
:)

Dec. 4, 2007 | 12:04 PM pacometaloso says:

Tom you tac alot.

Dec. 4, 2007 | 2:50 PM Teshla says:

You could make diffirent color capes (or something like that) for players with the same type of knight. But this idea I guess is only if you can't think of anything else, because it would still confuse the playres to some point.

Dec. 4, 2007 | 4:34 PM monkey44 says:

YAY 66TH COMMENT but i cant wait for CASTLE CRASHERZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ DONE! STRAWBERRYCLOCK

Dec. 4, 2007 | 4:47 PM Sterance says:

game developing is HARD!

I get that magazine, Game Developer, and i LOVE it. very very good. i recommend you get it and read every issue.

I think that items and weapons unlocked should available for all of your characters. I imagine your 360 account as a tavern, and your knights chill in it. If the blue knight beats the game and heads back to the tavern to chill with orange knight, orange knight isn't somehow magically stronger. BUT if blue knight gets some sweet ass loot from beating the game, he could let orange knight use it.

In other words, level progress should be per knight, while items should be shared, IMO.

Also you should allow new players to play later levels online. If they want their asses handed to them, thats their prerogative. You could also look at Diablo 2 online for some examples. D2 is a great example of how online multi player can turn out.

(I'm totally applying for a job with your company when i graduate.. even if you say you aren't hiring!)

Dec. 4, 2007 | 9:16 PM MorrowDays says:

I dont like the ads on userpages >:(

its up to you, you can either go the cool, I make my own rules developer type, which is basically when you stick to your "ivory tower ideals" and have everyone conform, or you go with whatever the masses want, which is essentially a quick way to win.

but what the masses want usually changes every couple years anyway, so I'd go with route one. :)

Dec. 4, 2007 | 9:20 PM TheCriminalDuder says:

lol 69th comment. Oh yeah...
(Yes, I am pervertedly satisfied with this waste of a post.)

OnClipEvent (enterFrame) {
_root.thecriminalduder.gotoAndPlay("S hame")
}

Dec. 4, 2007 | 10:03 PM DanBomer says:

Pics or it didn't happen.

Dec. 5, 2007 | 12:39 AM glubgluby says:

so castle crashers is gonna be the next alien homnid
GO TOM GO!

Dec. 5, 2007 | 4:03 AM tablomqvist says:

Hmm, you've got some pretty mindbogling problems to solve.

The one thing I*d like to see in the game is that have a separate account for Live play and local co-op play with friends. I know I will play this game with my gaming buddies and since we play RPG's alot, we would like to play CC as an RPG. The first time playing we will choose our knights and stick with it for a long time over many playing sessions... but when I get home I'd like to play without messing up the stats of my knight that I play with my friends. Yes that means I carry my consoles to my friends.

If you could like make a "save slot" for a gaming group and that game wouldn't have any input on Live or singleplayer gaming.

Also a reset button for individual knights stats would be good... and a plain old clear all stats button would be good also :).

PS: Please, Tom, could you confirm CC will be a worldwide game and not just released in the States? I live in Europe (Finland) and haven't found a confimation that it will also come here. If so will they be released at the same time?

Dec. 12, 2007 | 4:05 PM Zailotech says:

try making it so you have to find speical... i dono FROGS to get your previous status back... like golden sun, but you didnt need it for the first one.

Dec. 20, 2007 | 7:59 PM LtMcMuffin says:

Here's a thought: I think you should put it on the Wii so I can play it, ya jackass.

Jan. 17, 2008 | 10:28 AM Bezman says:

Great article.

Personally, I consider completing already-completed sections of a game in order to unlock content or upgrades a horrible thing to ask of players. Sure, there's the argument that there's an element of fiero. But even that wanes after having completed it already - doing a harder objective is a far better provoker of that emotion.

It seems like taking liberties with people's time - why should we play again to level up yet another character unless we're enjoying the experience for its own sake? And if that's the case, we'd be playing through anyway.

I'd suggest all characters share experience.

At least think carefully about your reasoning for asking people to jump through your hoops rather than playing on their own terms.

Apr. 10, 2008 | 7:53 PM ArtemisTheHunter says:

I doubt you're still reading comments to this article, but if it has RP elements, then all characters should be able to wield each others weapons and access other character's unlocked levels. That way, like most RPGs, you can make a tank, a mage, and a berserker and other things like that. Trust me, it'll make the game a lot more fun.

But if you don't like the idea of new people joining in at harder levels, only allow new players to join in before a certain level, for example maybe the levels where it becomes slightly more difficult, or maybe they can only play up to five levels higher than the ones already unlocked.

May. 24, 2008 | 3:45 PM Bobby444 says:

Personally I would make several save files. So on save file 1, you could play as Blue Knight and Orange knight would have the same stats, but only on that save file.

Jun. 15, 2008 | 4:41 PM yutze says:

hald it off until an opertunaty is open

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Save Data and the Multi-player Problem

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