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Entry #115

Questions

2011-01-20 11:55:07 by TomFulp
Updated

There are a growing number of accounts that frequently submit games... I won't call them shitty games but they are cookie cutter games that appear to just keep rolling off an assembly line. The creators are either opportunists who employ third world labor, or developers who are swapping out some graphics and exerting minimal effort to submit as many games as possible.

Now, we've always been pretty lax about SPAM and we let you guys attempt to BLAM or PROTECT it... A lot of these games manage to make it through with reasonable scores in the 2.5-3.0 range and I guess some people are enjoying them. Many of them are somewhat decent, they just happen to be re-used over and over with new themes.

Do you think games like this should just continue to exist and pile up on NG? Or should we some day face a COOKIE CUTTER GAME APOCALYPSE where they all get mass-blammed?

I also am weary of the growing trend of games where you don't know who really made it. We don't allow you to submit a "stolen" game that someone else made, but we do let companies submit games that were produced by their staff, or developers they sponsored. Stuff like this likely won't be deleted, but as the amount of submissions on NG grows, I will continue to tighten the focus on games that were made by recognizable individuals. So keep that in mind when it comes to assigning credits.

Thoughts?


Comments

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MrDonkeydong155MrDonkeydong155

2011-01-20 12:01:56

I vote for apocalypse.


ProjektCOGProjektCOG

2011-01-20 12:06:47

Well~ though the usual Newgrounds way of letting the user-base blam and protect submissions works for a majority of reasons, then again, we all know it also has its share of problems.

I reckon that a mass blamming of these unoriginal games would be justified, so I wouldn't let that idea slide~ It'll make a lot of room for those other improvements to the site, whatever they may be, and more "original content" by the users.

So in my opinion, if there were to be a blam apocalypse, I'd give it the go ahead, Tom.


TheMAMTheMAM

2011-01-20 12:08:05

I vote with MrDonkey. Apocalypse it is. Seriously, I don't give a damn about those games.


LDAFLDAF

2011-01-20 12:08:46

I love the cookie cutter mass blam idea. I was making some icons a while ago and one guy literally submitted the same game 6-7 times.


balbodbalbod

2011-01-20 12:09:33

make it like the tressure hunt apart from all the found games are burned and who ever kills the most wins


C0mBineDC0mBineD

2011-01-20 12:10:07

I agree with this it is a bit dodgy if you can just make an account pretending you are a sponsor and submit stolen games.
I think there should be atleast some credits in the description of the games or in the game itself if only the sponsor submits the game. but then still the actual creators wouldn't get any profit out of it.
I think I would mass blam it unless they co-author the people that did the work (drew art made the music etc.)


OmegaGlowOmegaGlow

2011-01-20 12:10:16

I vote for apocalypse, honestly I understand your concerns. Inf act, I kinda am too. I've seen games that I know for a fact someone else made them. Like the Run Jesus Run game. I know for a fact that the one who submitted it was not the one who made it. But it made it through, got front paged and all. It kinda bothers me. But I truly believe a lot of people are just trying too hard to become big on here. It's everyones dream on here to get huge, lets face it. Its the truth. But this doesn't give them license to submit such crappy material to our portal.

I'm pretty sure you will make the right thing, and I look forward to it actually. I'm tired of seeing all this cookie cutter crap on here as well.

TomFulp responds:

Run Jesus Run is totally legit - it has molleindustria credited in the intro and the molleindustria account is validated to an email address from the molleindustria web domain.


PsychoGoldfishPsychoGoldfish

2011-01-20 12:10:38

If they pass judgment, they pass judgement... just don't promote them at all. The other thing to consider is that I am, in fact, in b4 Louis


KanrikKanrik

2011-01-20 12:11:13

I seriously think that blamming would partially solve the problem. We can't really expect to let this slide, but there is no effective way to solve it either so we are basically left with one question

How do we permanently solve this?


Drawer4EveryoneDrawer4Everyone

2011-01-20 12:11:39

Vote for apocalypse, but asking which we want to still continue having.
I don't support newgrounds buying T-Shrits and stuff for viewing that each day there are 500^2000 games that are girl games, car games or clic games.
I know how hard is programming, but they can explode a code as many times they do!


therealanimatortherealanimator

2011-01-20 12:13:10

The creators of the accounts should say who made their games and it gets annoying especially the user 123bee who mades mediocre room escape games. Its spamming the portal and i hate to see shitty games getting 5s that hard working flash game workers deserve.


LewToonsLewToons

2011-01-20 12:13:12

i think overall the scoring inflation could be knocked back a bit.for these "Cookie cutter both movies and games" its too easy for them to make it into the portal green - even with just the slightest effort.

also i definitely think its more fun when i can place and artist to a game rather than a company - that way it feels like i'm interacting more with the ng community rather than going to one of those shitty games sites

so i guess i would say apocalypse as well


EyeLovePoozyEyeLovePoozy

2011-01-20 12:13:19

If you're referring to the type of things such as those 10 "dress up" games a week that are submitted by the same 1-2 users using alts such as 123dressup etc.

I vote yes on deleting and banning their continued existence.


VicBissVicBiss

2011-01-20 12:13:40

I think most sponsors allow the people to submit games, and games submitted by regular people tend to get better scores. And I am also sick of devs rehashing games. If we could I'd blam them, but they get good scores so obviously the audience likes them :/


dags88dags88

2011-01-20 12:15:45

Tom it's time for you to become a iron fist dictator. If they do not obey off with their heads.


shoshanishshoshanish

2011-01-20 12:16:54

i think mass blam.
but dont just go blaming things.
if its a repeat, blam it unless iots the original.
if its shit that is spam/troll material, BLAM.
if it is hard to decide on flash1, then hold a vote on the individual things, so that some of these hard to decide ones get blammed and others dont.
and also a warning system and update system would be good.


JoSilverJoSilver

2011-01-20 12:17:32

I say the apocalypse is a bit to extreme, but people should really instead be alittle bit more cautious with their 5's, It's everyone's fault really. The people who vote on it, the people you submit it and even newgrounds. as long as these cookie cutter games don't make it on to the front page or anything I think we'll all be just fine.


shoshanishshoshanish

2011-01-20 12:19:49

@kanrik
i think we should ahve a super filter made up of computer AND users, so that it works with everyone.
if the cpu thinks its bad, it will tell a select unit of 10-100 members (from a select team of 1,000-10,000 members) about this specific flash and let them decide.


PIED3PIED3

2011-01-20 12:20:42

Yes i do think you should delete the Newgrounds Youtube page and stop being such infidels.


CatoblepasCatoblepas

2011-01-20 12:21:43

destroy them


kmaukmau

2011-01-20 12:22:13

I noticed that some time ago too. There are lots of, sorry, crappy flash games coming in. While I don't say there's no effort involved I vote for the apocalypse.

If you choose to make a flash game you are usually aware of how difficult it can be to make a good innovative game, and if you lower your goals because of that and make a crappy 1 button game then you simply shouldn't make flash games at all except for practice because nobody will play it and it will be left in the virtual cellar of newgrounds, so basically theres no difference - it either hibernates on your harddrive or on newgrounds.

I must note however that there ARE simple flash games like Super Ryucopter.. so you shouldn't select what to blam by simplicity and bizarro-effortlessness alone.

Maybe just increase all users voting power against games only?
Like this:
My voting power for movies:
3,80
My voting power for games:
if score increases: 3,80
if score is lowered: 7,60


FrozenFireFrozenFire

2011-01-20 12:22:15

One issue I have is with Mofunzone who is quite stubborn with crediting the people he sponsors.

My official first game was a small one that I never got coauthored for.
I've noticed Mofunzone doing a bunch of cheap tricks for site views so I've always been bugged by his treatment of the people who provide his site with content. I've not ever had that problem elsewhere.

I'm not quite sure what issue you have with cookie cutter games. Im assuming it has to do with bandwidth and you wanting to save some dough on games that have been seen many times before. (which is understandable)

As for games which you don't know if it's stolen.. it's pretty challenging to tell unless you do some research or get a message from the original artist. I see a lot of my games jacked onto random small sites (desirable if they contain ads) but Newgrounds is above such things. Stolen games should def. be removed.

Mochi did an article recently about developers not getting credit for their sponsored work which really got my attention. So I think you should make a statement in the submission process (Bolded) that recommends the developers be credited somewhere.. be it description, coauthor, in game.. etc.


zhentezhente

2011-01-20 12:24:41

Holocaust those cookie cutters.


Manly-ChickenManly-Chicken

2011-01-20 12:28:55

Destroy those cookie cutters! They have no buisiness being here, they just plug the portal and make it harder to find good stuff.


JoelasticotJoelasticot

2011-01-20 12:30:22

Tom, these turds they keep laying upon the portal fall into the abyss once they leave the 50 latest listing. Seriously, even their older submissions average in the 1000s of views. While their stuff doesn't really hurt anyone, it's annoying to see people for whom Flash & Newgrounds are just a cheap way to make a few bucks and keep their crappy website(s) running

These things are below spam - which in most cases, has some entertaining value. I vote for deletion


OdHeroOdHero

2011-01-20 12:30:38

Many cookie cutter games are also beginners making their very first games, they would be discouraged to be blammed, despite the fact their game isn't that original in the future those who stick to it will make better stuff.

Consider it a delicate balance, I would only delete the obviously swapped graphics kind of ones.


HollowKHollowK

2011-01-20 12:40:28

I'd say mass apocalypse.


A-ShiftA-Shift

2011-01-20 12:41:23

COOKIE CUTTER GAME APOCALYPSE!


biglou2128biglou2128

2011-01-20 12:42:32

I can't stand it when people submit the same dumbass game over and over. I say blam them. I do it anyway.


StarogreStarogre

2011-01-20 12:45:21

hmm mass-blammed as in voted 0 or just blammed while they are under judgement?

i think we should have a 2012 apocalypse where everyone mass votes 0 on EVERYTHING to get the standards for a good score back down.


SheizenhammerSheizenhammer

2011-01-20 12:45:40

Honestly, I see these games as little different from spam submissions. Apart from the lack of deliberate attempts to annoy people, the premise of them is the same: Do as little work as possible and rely on the blind statwhores to pass them (<= Only reason they get such high scores, so far as I can tell). It's almost as if these companies are just using NG as file-hosting and / or free ad space.

IMO, there's only so many different re-skins a game can get before new ones become so similar to previous games that they're basically just re-submits. I think having a maximum limit on how many of the same underlying game you can submit would be a good idea... which would mean a blam apocalypse for most of the accounts uploading these things.

Also, I do like the idea of only allowing games made by recognisable individuals. I've often found it near impossible when trying to decide if a game is stolen or not when it comes from a big website or a huge team of people with no real mention of who exactly did most of the work. Worse still, e-mailing them to try to get a coherent answer about it is often met with ridiculous amounts of red-tape and time-wasting. I have honestly gotten more coherent replies out of 6 year olds than some of these companies.

If you want to change what gets passed and what gets flagged, though, you're probably going to need a better (or at least different) flagging system: the vast majority (and I do mean like 99%) of people who vote on UJ stuff either don't know, or simply don't care, about what should and shouldn't be allowed in here. And I know Wade's got better things to do than babysit the portal all day every day. The amount of times stolen stuff gets through is just sad, and making rules against these things is only going to be even less successful as long as the current flag system keeps relying on said UJ voters alone.


cortkillercortkiller

2011-01-20 12:45:57

It could have a time limit to post submissions on the site to prevent the 'mass cookie cutter games', then, when you try to submit another game in the period of 15 minutes (or more) you receive the message:

"You can only upload another submission 15 minutes after the last one"
^.-


TydusTydus

2011-01-20 12:46:37

I think there's too much grey area involved in who actually MADE content posted to the Portal. Even little things, like the now infamous "DOT DOT DOT" featuring Carl Orff's 'O Fortuna' will often go unnoticed. Obviously that song is ancient and has been used in more than a handful of NG submissions, but it's still proof that even though something may be credited in the author comments, it often times gets associated as work from the submitting author. As far as games go, there's a lot of companies (Like Armor Games) that do a great job of letting the developer get credit for their work, but there's so many more that don't. I know it sounds harsh, but I don't think a "Developer's Account" is out of the question for Newgrounds. It should have some incentives, though, like an upped filesize limit or an increased revenue program. And if at all possible, GET RID OF NON-NEWGROUNDS ADS AT THE BEGINNING OF GAMES. NG HAS IT'S OWN PROGRAM THAT PAYS BETTER.


YoinKYoinK

2011-01-20 12:47:38

COOKIE CUTTER GAME APOCALYPSE
also, in before LUIS!


Rabid-AnimalsRabid-Animals

2011-01-20 12:50:26

I'm all for a cookie cutter game apocalypse. I'm so sick of seeing "find the difference games," and if they're using some kind of forced labor (the thought of a Flash-producing sweatshop terrifies me), then that just makes the issue more reprehensible.

I think that since they're such huge entities, the staff, or somebody, should be able to intervene. Obviously, the people submitting the games have resources for to make a site of their own, so I don't see why they need to clog up NG with them. I see why they would want to, but that doesn't make it any better.

Let's bring down the hammer!


wowpwner09wowpwner09

2011-01-20 12:53:21

i think that the blamming should stop, but low-rated submissions go somewhere else than the portal. like a crap portal. a C-Bot.


DCzerkies42DCzerkies42

2011-01-20 12:56:13

I say we spill the blood of cookies:) tom you missed my bday yesterday:(


ZendraZendra

2011-01-20 12:56:13

You've got an example of two? Then we know what you're talking about, at least I am. ;)


KinseiKinsei

2011-01-20 13:00:33

Apocalypse!
We have a Day for saving, why not have a day for killing?


jmalouin7jmalouin7

2011-01-20 13:05:34

a good user i have noticed doing this is 123bee. If you look at their games, they are all the same fucking game, but different theme on the background.

when I use to go for b/p points i would look at there games, and they just have the most minimum effort needed to get by, while making sure everything looked pretty. however i thought the majority of their games could be packaged up into one bigger game. An example, they made a bunch of "find the hidden number games" where on the screen you would have to find 25 hidden numbers within a certain amount of time. but each of these things were just one level long and that was it.

I seen probably around 7-8 of these exact games that I can think of off the top of my head, and the only thing i could think about was "why were these single level games not thrown together?"

The only conclusion i can really think of on why they are doing this is to run as many ads as possible, without breaking any rules with the ads. If you can make one game several levels with only one ad, you wouldn't make that much money. however, if you make a bunch of games that are good enough to get the attention of most users, with an ad in each of them, they can collect a lot more money out of it.


Etackett2010Etackett2010

2011-01-20 13:06:32

Blam those pieces of shit


XXDreamMakerXXXXDreamMakerXX

2011-01-20 13:08:26

Newgrounds dedicate that day to AXMAN13.


Ronald-McDonald-LoLRonald-McDonald-LoL

2011-01-20 13:08:33

Tom, I'm sure you're aware by now, but it's practically impossible to blam something with a filesize over 1 MB these days. Users are voting on flashes without even pressing play.

People recognize these cookie-cutter games by name and they vote to protect immediately, with or without even opening them.


sirjeffofshortsirjeffofshort

2011-01-20 13:09:08

It seems to me like with these cookie cutter games, when the next one comes out the previous ones wil be almost immediately forgotten. There really isn't any sense to keeping around any of those games that are under/not performing, for any party. Maybe not a mass apocalypse per-say, but a certain set of standards can't hurt.


3D-xelu3D-xelu

2011-01-20 13:15:50

APOCALYPSE (mechanical ice one)


RuckloRucklo

2011-01-20 13:21:14

just keep working on systems, automated or manually controlled, that helps out promoting NG-related content, and/or content by - like you say - recognizable individuals.

Perhaps more guidlines of "how to vote" could be good too. In the end I think that portal-moderators should have a little more power and be able to help out with such things. Just make sure that the options aren't destructive, i.e. a rollback-option that admins can use in case some mod goes haywire. It happens... :3

btw, if you're going for the APOCALYPSE NOWWWWW option, please make sure the BBS gets it good too. Thank you! ^________________^


PromeProme

2011-01-20 13:24:49

And basically you say; "dammit we are running out of space and you should keep your crap games out of my site. Im paying for it."


HavegumHavegum

2011-01-20 13:32:54

I vote for apocalypse, with the option to pre-delete the games. Tell all the people submitting same game over and over to delete the clone games.
If they don't, force it (leave the cute games be)


EJREJR

2011-01-20 13:40:41

I vote no for the cookie cutter game apocalypse..


reverendreverend

2011-01-20 13:42:34

To be honest I don't mind these games too much. It's not like they are talking too much server space or consuming high amounts of bandwidth. If you started removing such games, then you might have users cry for removing other flash like KK, Star Syndicate submissions or even cookie cutter sprite movies. It'll just open Pandora's box, so to speak.

The only real issue that I might have about them is them dancing around the two submission per day limit. I think it might be best if you just said to them, that they can upload their games but stop with all the accounts they use to submit them with especially the 123XXX and game2XXXX accounts.