1999Elias 2013-10-03 14:56:12

Very great Tom, I hope get really surprised coming from you :D.
Good luck and, fear don't help anyone, it's just more one obstacle.

Malachy 2013-10-03 15:00:48

Sometimes we need to check our egos when we're working. Yes, you might of found a work around but what's the shame in learning a more efficient method? Or maybe your method might be the better solution. It doesn't hurt to throw it out there.

What I always loved about Newgrounds, and especially the developer forums, were the people willing to offer advice and have a conversation about solutions to problems. Having that conversation where you might be proven wrong is a good thing. Hopefully people can be respectful instead of condescending.

But I don't know jack all about game development but I still love to hear how artists in the field are able to reconcile problems. I love to see the sharing of ideas and tips.

devilsgarage 2013-10-03 15:06:17

I find the process of being creative comes with a similar price. A good chunk of my work on a game goes into preproduction, trying to create art directions that are new and experimental. But time and again, I tend to stick to the norm because of two factors - familiarity and trends. Art styles - for demand , by demand.

When a game is published I would also love to show gamers the different concept and art styles that game has evolved though and how the final visual treatment came about.Most of the work being very rough, doesn't look very appealing since they are generally very fast scribbles. I have a very clear idea of those concepts in my mind, but I find it unnecessary to fully render them to save on time.

I would like to break out of this comfort zone, experiment with new styles and, and brace some professional and end-user critics. Only time will tell if I could do this and have the energy to answer everyone's questions.
Yup, that said - all the best on your new game. Looking forward to it

MSGhero 2013-10-03 15:07:42

I don't think you're stupid, Tom.

Write up a post--or I guess peri--mortem talking about what you've done so far and any challenges and stuff. You don't even have to post it if you want it to stay under wraps; it just helps to clear my mind after coding or solving a problem.

RatherRandomReality 2013-10-03 15:34:26

I feel the exact same way. I honestly think I suck as a programmer and I get really frustrated when I observe how easy it is for other people to solve problems that took me days to figure out. I often look at all the games I've made and I don't even know how I ended up with the final product. Just sheer drive and motivation to create something that compensates for the lack of knowledge how to do it exactly. As long as it works and it doesn't crash, I don't think anyone cares. If we agree that the only way to evaluate something is to compare it to similar things, I think you are a programming genius compared to many of us around here.

JoSilver 2013-10-03 15:38:09

Well, as for the first part of you're post all I can say both you and I know that making a game no matter how big or small, simple or complex is far from an exact science. It's all about problem solving and big companies like Nintendo have the befit of having lots of people to bounce Ideas off of, and they still don't have a better solution the the bubbles or atleast to my knowledge.

As far as a camera for 4 player platformers it's a problem I pondered myself on how to deal with it, unfortunately I not working on a project so haven't put that much thought into it but for what I have I quickly realized it's a much more difficult issue then it may seem at first.

I had the idea to have for players who were falling behind to have a window pop up in place of a little Icon to signify where they were, in the window they would have they're own, yet smaller view, it would move around based on they're elevation and things like that and merge with the main camera as they caught back up. But that Idea presents more issues, how much screen space do you allow for players lagging behind, what if the window blocks important information for the players up ahead, what does the main camera favor? Not to mention what does a system like that mean on a technical and hardware level. It just makes more and more questions, questions that can be answered in many different ways.

The way I see just do what you think feels right.

BenTibbetts 2013-10-03 15:40:12

This is an interesting read. The insecurities you mention here are probably common and not specific to programming or mathematics. Personally, I emphasize with what you wrote about the fear of looking stupid. I feel that way about sharing my creative process with other people. That fear goes doubly for me when it comes to sharing anything that seems unfinished or poorly executed.

kkots 2013-10-03 15:50:09

The camera in multiplayer platformers is a difficult problem. I like to solve it by zooming out (but I'm going to ignore it in my platformer, because multiplayer levels are only a bit larger than the stage size).

I can write my method for that, and all equations. I am not afraid to share my thoughts. There is no "right" way for anything. The Greek Sophists thought that every man has his own knowledge about the world. You cannot hurt by sharing an advice, even if it is bad. Because when you teach, you make people think about their problems and move forward, instead of coming up with their own solution... daaaamn I messed up my entire speech! :(((

ImpendingRiot 2013-10-03 16:14:17

I admitted a long time ago I have no idea what i'm doing. And I really don't...

Turd 2013-10-03 17:15:05

Excited to see what you 2 have in store.

AssassinJoK3Rz 2013-10-03 17:42:09

I'll test your game on your bugs and crashes if needed

DieterTheuns 2013-10-03 18:40:09

One thing I've always loved about the games you and JohnnyUtah make is how utterly unique they are. Working with roundabout solutions is undoubtly a big part of that. After all; restriction is the mother of creativity.

It'd be interesting to see a game focused entirely around the "difference in skillset" aspect of co-operative multiplayer, now I think about it. Hrm...

YoutubeIsawesome 2013-10-03 18:57:59

When are we getting Battleblock theater DLC

Kajenx 2013-10-03 19:03:29

Haha, 90% of tutorials out there are made by people who just figured something out and wanted to make it easier for other people. Math is one of those things where there ALWAYS seems to be a better way to do it. That's why Google pays big money for optimization professionals to come in and speed up their back end.

The rule I've seen stated across the internet is that you should only worry about optimizing when you need the speed. Of course, as an optimization fan, I follow the opposite rule of "optimize for the most speed, then fill it all up with graphics XD."

At the end of the day, if the code works, it's right. Post without fear! Anyway, you're Tom Fulp, who's going to make fun of you? :D

Lobsterblues 2013-10-03 19:04:18

Maybe you can turn it into a gameplay element? If it's co-operative multiplayer, maybe the player lagging behind could use a button or a combo to sort of boost back on screen. It could even have some advantages, killing enemies in its path, or giving the 'Leader' a step up to unreachable platforms.
If it's versus multiplayer, the 'Leading' player could be surrounded by a 'Safe Zone', which is the maximum zone the camera will stretch. Players lagging behind will take damage outside the Zone, like in Metroid Prime 2 or Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles?
I've never designed a game, but perhaps these ideas will give you some inspiration.

deathink 2013-10-03 19:11:10

I consider programming an art form, however, many people don't treat it like that. They say there is a right way to do it, and that makes them generic. There is very little more unique than a flaw. Its so odd how intensely game developers have stripped "flaws" out of games, but when I was a kid "flaws" were a mayor function of game play. Here is a quick for instance. Games like Odd world or flash back had extremely unforgiving controls, I am sure many an asshole stepped in an complained about that with those games, but to me to that is easily one of my favorite parts.... As for your Bubbles thing, I think multiplay gaming is still very much in its infant state and no one has even scratched the surface on getting it right so far, so please experiment like crazy to pioneer those missing gaps.

BoMToons 2013-10-03 19:14:30

In the 2 player mode of Abobo's contra level, we made the screen stop scrolling if anyone lagged behind horizontally, and killed them if they went off the bottom... brutal, but for those who want to cooperate they talk in real life, and for the jerks, they can constantly kill their partner... Doesn't account for difference in skill level between players though... Oh, I know, put the lagging player's game on the wii-mote screen until they catch up!

I forgot to ask, is this for the wii-u? :-D

Doomroar 2013-10-03 20:51:03

You know @BomToons and @kkots ideas sound wonderful, what about zooming out the screen to a point where all the players are on screen, and if the player(s) is(are) too far away the screen "cracks" and it divides into smaller screens, with the bigger one taking the main stage, then as they get closer they start to merge, i'm thinking something like cellular mitosis here.

As for the epistemology problem, again Kkots had the right point there, except that and advice or teaching should lead to the person to reflect on its own methods, in the beginning is true they wouldn't be thinking by their own tools, but that was in the lectures where the role of the student was to remain silent and listen, once whit their annotations they would develop their own ideas, then with the ideas once polished they will engage into dialectics to point out an argument, in the very classic Sophists method a lot of appeals to metaphysics matters where allowed, but with the arrival of Euripides and Socrates a more rational method of dialectics was implemented, where rationality was put on front of it all making something like not "coming up with their own solution" impossible, this is then known as the Socratic method, which of course has it flaws a discourse that is too good, and seemingly clean, may persuade people into mistakes, that is one of the critics that Foucault makes to the dialectics as he analyses the relations of "power" between the parties engaged into a dialogue, what he proposes is to identity these things and intent to reduce their influence, that way it will proceed in a more truthful way. In this version people wouldn't be learning the wrong way to do things because part of it is to reform the system that you are teaching them, as for the shame of being laughed at, it shouldn't be, since indeed there is not a "true" right way to do things just, as the shortest phat may not be the best path, so the pressure may come purely with pride and status, what we known recognition, but if is our interest is to teach this shouldn't be a concern.

Sorry for the wall text, is all my fault for trying to complete kkots speech.

teejay-number13 2013-10-04 02:20:44

Say Tom, I noticed a checkbox option under the project manager for games that says "Login Required". What is that exactly?

JonBro 2013-10-04 03:51:07

I think this happens to me. I doubt any of my methods for making games are the most efficient or logical ways, so I don't want to share my process with other people because I might be teaching them the wrong things, or inviting criticism I won't be able to do anything with. But you can take comfort in knowing that what you do works.